NAM.2017-11-2-1

Oral history of Gavin Mortimer, historian about UK Special Forces, focusing on the Second World War. Interview undertaken by Sophie Stathi at the National Army Museum on 3 Nov 2017. 4000847 Covers the formation and operations of the SAS and the SBS during the Second World War. Talks about their legacy - Commandos too big to be effective; Special Forces tactics founded during this time; the type of person recruited hasn’t changed - lists qualities of a Special Forces soldier. Talks about recruitment during Second World War. Parachute training; march in Palestine with rope soled boots and Khaki kit. Talks about people being RTU’d - then it was usually a punishment for bad conduct, rather than a result of selection or training. Stirling, Lewes and Mayne - gives background and character of each. Comments on the effectiveness of the SAS and SBS raids. Talks about return to UK in 1944 - expansion ready for operation in France, based in Scotland; training in demolishing railway lines and driving trains. Grant Taylor led some of the training. Essential Special Forces kit is their boots - they wanted American boots during the Second World War. Comments on importance of Stirling in the birth of the SAS. Weapons and kit - Tommy gun; liked American weapons (Carbine) and German MP40; Colt 45; Vickers machine gun (mounted on LRDG jeeps); American jeeps; LRDG members had compasses sewn into their berets; silk handkerchief escape maps. Differences between an SAS and SBS trooper - fundamentally no difference but obviously trained in different skills. Operation Frankton - too ambitious; reconnaissance not thorough enough; short term gain; brave men. SAS received some publicity for their operations - some debate about this at the Ministry of War; press release in September 1944; “Robin Hoods of the Desert”, “Bandits of France”, “Modern Day Highway Men”; LRDG also received press attention. Operation Titanic - one of least known SAS operations in France; 6 men parachuted about 40 miles south east of the main beach head in early hours of the morning; diversionary operation to trick Germans into thinking major air drop was happening; used firecrackers and a gramophone with recording of men shouting. Lassen’s bloodbath - SBS operation in April 1944 in Santorini; anchored about a mile off the island, climbed the cliff and half went to destroy a radio station and half including Anders Lassen went to destroy the German garrison; killed around 30-40 Germans. Ill conceived. SAS and SBS had no contact because SBS never operated in France and operated in the Balkans, didn’t cross paths. Remain separate entities today. Women in Special Forces - women played vital role in Northern Ireland; no reason why not; do a good job in certain areas; shouldn’t be in SAS because working in small units - male chemistry could be unbalanced. Women in SOE. Shell shock. When interviewed SAS veterans from Second World War saw that the women in their lives provided the support when they returned home, getting them back into civilian life. Didn’t really talk about their experiences. ‘Sand of the Sea’ film about the LRDG. Iranian Embassy siege brought SAS into the limelight. Identities of Special Forces soldiers needed to be guarded during Northern Ireland. Disclosure - if disclosure breached, you’re no longer welcome, even applied in Second World War. Unnecessary for the general public to know exactly what the Special Forces are doing, doesn’t concern the public. Public fascinated with SAS because it’s exclusive, special; would they have the fame they have today if the Iranian Embassy siege hadn’t happened? Public wants to know more because of the secrecy surrounding them. Work and role of Special Forces is essential to UK security - ability to penetrate behind enemy lines; complimentary to rest of British Army. We need the Special Forces, provide eyes and ears. Public perception of Special Forces is accurate but limited. Special Forces don’t want a “professional tough guy”. Many good books about Second World War Special Forces, recent representations more theatrical particularly on TV reality shows. Printed word usually better than on-screen representations. SAS victim of its own success. Those who go public about their experiences break a bond of trust. 4000848 Why the secrecy? Fear of retribution from the IRA; today more of an operational point of view - important that secrecy maintained as allows Special Forces to do their job; secrecy keeps the media away. 4000849 Shows correspondence between David Lloyd Owen and Darren Yule [?] February 1956. Owen had sent Yule notes on recruitment of LRDG and Yule drafted criteria for 22 SAS selection. Reads out qualities listed which are: initiative, self-discipline, independence of mind, work without supervision, stamina, patience, sense of humour. 4000850 Diversity in the LRDG, the SAS and the SBS - focus on the breadth of Regiments recruited from, as well as ethnic diversity. “Eclectic brigade”. Recites letter from Captain John Verney, SAS, about the best qualities in his fellow troopers. 4000851 Sten gun - universally hated as unreliable. Talks about interviewing a German who fought the 101 at Carentan - he was found by Americans after being shot through the cheek by a sniper, who decided not to shoot him on sight, and spent rest of war in POW camp. Talks about interview with Rommel’s driver about serving in Africa. Talked about why Germans didn’t come up with their own Special Forces at the time. Importance of jeeps to SAS in Second World War - technology meets “Edwardian adventure spirit”. Romanticism of Second World War SAS vs. Andy McNab’s portrayal in ‘Bravo Two Zero’. Public appetite for books on SAS. Talks about ‘Our War’. Story from SBS veteran about raid on Crete - captured two German POWs.

World War Two (1939-1945), World War Two, North Africa (1940-1945), World War Two, Italy (1943-1945)

GRANBY, Operation, 1990-91 (Gulf War 1990-1991), Bravo Two Zero Patrol, 1991 (Gulf War 1990-1991)